Talk:Games

Should we add here that there is now confirmed commercial support for the pandora? Magicman5421

If one of the indie game houses has an anouncement on their site that we can link to, then yes. Otherwise, wait for something to be available or at least officially announced. Though if you want to make up a template for game entries, by all means :) Chip 04:31, 3 September 2008 (CEST)

subdividing released games

at this point it may be worthwhile to further dividing the released games into lists which would allow someone who is looking for a game to find it on the list faster. Any ideas for how to split them up? The most obvious way would be type of game, shooter, strategy, platformer, etc.
--Cheese 22:58, 12 July 2010 (MEST)

Why would you want to do this? I am heavily against the proposal. You can already sort them by category. Note in the introduction: "Please click on the little squares to sort by different categories.". You can sort by genre, or by release date (useful, because you can see what's new since you last visited). Esn 13:27, 15 July 2010 (MEST)

Well, it's a long list that will only be getting longer. I suppose it really doesn't matter, though. Another way to split it up would be original games (made by members of the community) and ports. This could actually be more useful since you can't easily see that right now. I guess you could add another column for that and then be able to sort it though. --Cheese 20:20, 15 July 2010 (MEST)

I think that everything should be sorted by columns. As soon as you create separate lists, you break at least one of the things you can sort by. If you separate by genre, you can't sort by date anymore. Anyway, lists like this can become quite long before they get unmanageable. i.e. here's another project that I'm involved in. Esn 00:35, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Separating original games and ports could be useful. There's an easy way it could be done right now - either create a new column, as you said, or simply move the "port" to before the author's name. That way when you click "sort" on author, all the ports will be in one place. The only possibly bad thing about this is that original games and ports by the same author will be in two separate places (a third way that avoids this problem is putting "Port" as the first thing in the "notes" column if it's a port). Also, is it always clear what is original and what is a port, or can there be some confusion sometimes? (something in between?) Esn 00:44, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

After considering the options, I think it makes the most sense to create another column. I can see three possibilities for classing the game: Community made (port or otherwise), Port of Commercial game (eg. Doom, Quake, ROTT, Hexen, etc.), and port of free game (Supertux, Battle for Wesnoth, etc). But I don't know what the header for it would be called. --Cheese 03:02, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Why not just use the existing "notes" column for that? Making extra columns is a bit drastic, and I think we should avoid it if there's a simpler option. Also, the "port of commercial game" thing is already covered by having those asterisks. Also... I'm not entirely sure why this would be very useful. I can think of a few other things that might have more justification for columns. i.e. License. I didn't include it because I figured it would be better to not make too many columns that aren't directly useful to most users, because the more you add, the more complex it becomes for editors to add new content. Esn 04:23, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

I'm a user, and when I'm looking for a new game to try it's something I often take into consideration. I don't necessarily care about the license so much when I want to play a game, so long as it's free to be distributed (a thing which the asterisks do take care of). I agree it's a little drastic... however it's the only solution I can come up with that would let you sort the list in a way that would help you find, for example, games made by the Pandora community. Unless you were to split it into multiple lists, but then that adds complexity for editors as well. I'd like to also add that theres a similar, older, discussion already on the wiki, here. --Cheese 05:05, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

We could add the text to the existing "Notes" column, and it would be sortable that way. All other links/commentary that are currently in "Notes" can come after, since they don't need to be alphabetically sorted anyway. Is this okay?

I still think that the line between "port" and "original" may be too blurry to be useful... I think that it's more of a continuum rather than a straight line. For example, if someone makes a tetris clone, is that a "port" or is it "original"? Also, if someone makes a game for the Pandora but makes it cross-platform so that it runs on PCs and Macs as well (as many games do these days), does it cease being "original"? Or if the game is made simultaneously for Pandora and other platforms? Esn 07:08, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Sorry, one more thing... maybe a column for multiplayer options? Pandora can have different types of multiplayer. Some games have none, some have netplay (i.e. Ur-Quan Masters should have it, I think), some if you hook up an extra controller, some 2-player on 1 Pandora (either turn-based, or maybe one person simultaneously uses the right controls as the other uses the left). I think that would be a justified and easy-to-define use of a column... Esn 07:22, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Ah... you don't know the true definition of a port is then. From Wikipedia: In computer science, porting is the process of adapting software so that an executable program can be created for a computing environment that is different from the one for which it was originally designed (e.g. different CPU, operating system, or third party library). The term is also used in a general way to refer to the changing of software/hardware to make them usable in different environments. So, by definition, a Tetris clone would not be port, while the engines which have been ported that play the commercial games would be. I've considered the issue of someone making a game for multiple platforms, basically if the game was made by someone in the Pandora community it should be classified as a community made game (regardless of the platform it was made for or who ported it, BattleJewels, for example). Games made by other open source communities which have not made the game with the Pandora in mind at all are deserving of a third category (which I had mentioned above).

As for the additional columns, see my post in the talk page for games. A multiplayer column would definitely be pretty useful. --Cheese 10:36, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Maybe I didn't know the exact definition, but maybe that definition isn't very useful... "port of commercial game" is already covered by the asterisks, so we're left with two options: "Community made (port or otherwise)" and "port of free game". Basically (correct me if I'm wrong), like a qualification of the "author" column: "one of ours" vs. "outsider", with an arbitrary line drawn in the sand marking where exactly the idea can be said to germinate. What about when someone ports a game that originated somewhere else, but then adds substantial features to it? Or what if the port is done by the same author who did the original game for other systems, but he just uploads it to the File Archive and doesn't actually sign up on the forums and become part of the community (I think there might've been some like this already)? Anyway, since the multiplayer is uncontroversial, I guess I'll go and add it... Esn 10:58, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Yeah, I see what you mean, there will be the occasional game that doesn't quite fit into either of those. I'd think it would be safer to put your two examples into the category of games which were made by other open source communities. Some of the less obvious ones would have to be discussed a bit, like, how much modification was done to the original game? The asterisks don't allow you to sort, so I still think there's some value in showing this. Adding it to another column still adds width to the whole table and limits the sorting options a bit. Can we agree that if I can reclaim some of the width by hiding the notes column that it should be added? --Cheese 19:09, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Just looked into the collapsing notes, it looks like an admin would have to add some javascript into MediaWiki:Common.js. Since that's the case it's actually more customizable than I thought. I'd like to have a template for the notes, so we could just do something like: {{Notes|note=Notes go here}} and that would be added to any notes cell with more than just something very brief, I count one entry like that, maybe 4 if you're picky. The result would be that a "more" link would be in the cell and you'd click it to see the notes. Not perfect, but simple enough not to be overly cumbersome and it means the notes can be as long as you like without messing up the table on page load. I've installed a copy of mediawiki on my local server to test this, and once I figure it out I can send EvilDragon the changes to be applied. --Cheese 05:18, 17 July 2010 (MEST)

Another thing... I just tried this page at 800x480, it's a tight fit. Hiding the notes would still be useful, but it wouldn't give enough room for another column. We can compress the Multiplayer column by calling it MP then either a symbol or a couple characters, we'd need a glossary at the bottom of the list, but I don't think that's really an issue. I'm going to make the change and let you revert it if you don't like it. If it works we can use the same style to get the community made/commercial column I want while hardly adding any width to it. --Cheese 05:58, 17 July 2010 (MEST)

The "more" hide feature sounds like a neat idea. I hope you get it to work. The MP column is nice as well, but I'm not sure about one thing. There are currently 3 MP categories: "SS" (single system), "Net" (networked play) and "Both". But it seems to me that "SS" currently would include both those games that only require a single system, and those that require a system + a separate USB controller plugged in. I'm also a bit unsure about Networked play - would any game under the "Net" category have both internet and non-internet (i.e. LAN) multiplayer? Esn 06:48, 17 July 2010 (MEST)

Let's do an "SSC" (single system with external controller) category then. With the networked play, it's unlikely that a game for the Pandora would ever be totally online without LAN or LAN only. By supporting one you have to support the other, due to the way networks are set up. The only exception I can think of is if you're forced to connect to an external server (as in the case of an MMORPG). --Cheese 07:56, 17 July 2010 (MEST)

Oh yeah, there's no way to tell if "both" means Net and SSC or Net and SS. Maybe "N+C" (net + single system w/ controller), "N+S" (net+single system), and "all" or something? Though then it begins to get complicated. --Cheese 08:02, 17 July 2010 (MEST)

That sounds fine, and isn't too bad as long as the complexity stops there. :) I suspect that some combinations will never be used anyway. i.e. it's a bit hard to imagine a game that will use both SS and SS-C. Could happen, but seems unlikely. I guess if there is one, we could use "SS/C". Esn 19:00, 17 July 2010 (MEST)

Commercial games

I propose that any future commercial games can be separated from the rest simply by having the row be a certain colour. I think yellow (style="background: #ffff90") would do nicely. Esn 07:12, 16 July 2010 (MEST)

Hideable notes

I'm about to send a PM to ED to get him to apply the changes to Common.js that would allow for notes to be hideable. Once that happens, take a look at the GemBR entry to see it or for an example. It is done like this:

{{HideableNotes|notes=text goes here}}

--Cheese 07:35, 18 July 2010 (MEST)